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A Secret Afghanistan Mission Prepares for War with Iran
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William M. Arkin
The Washington Post
May 9, 2008
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Those predicting war with Iran or some Bush-Cheney October surprise attack on Tehran are constantly looking for signs of military preparations: a B-52 bomber that mistakenly takes off from North Dakota with nuclear-armed cruise missiles; a second or third aircraft carrier entering the Persian Gulf; a B-1 crashing in Qatar.
Since the most likely path to war with Iran is not Marines storming the beach but a strike on nuclear facilities and “regime” targets, signs such as these can often just be mirages. The true strike is not necessarily going to come with any warning, and the U.S. military has developed an entire system called “global strike” to implement such a preemptive strike.
A secret mission conducted last August over Afghanistan caught my eye because it tells us everything we need to know about the ability of the U.S. military to conduct a bolt-out-of-the-blue attack in Iran. It also tells us how useless such a strike might be.
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May 9th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Looks like we are going to war with Iran for sure.
LIFE IS SHORT! HEAVEN AND HELL ARE FOREVER.
THE ONLY WAY A PERSON WILL ESCAPE THE FLAMES OF HELL AND GO TO HEAVEN IS TO REPENT OF THEIR SINS AND PUT THEIR FAITH AND TRUST IN THE MERITS OF JESUS CHRST.
MONEY, FUN, AND FRIENDS CANNOT STOP DEATH.
AFTER DEATH IS THE JUDGMENT OF GOD.
HELL IS GOD’S JUDGMENT FOR PEOPLE THAT SIN AGAINST GOD.
HELL IS A REAL PLACE.
HELL IS A FURNANCE OF FIRE.
IN HELL A PERSON IS ALL ALONE.
HOW SAD! MOST PEOPLE WHEN THEY DIE WILL BE IN HELL.
RELIGIONS HAVE BEEN WRONG BUT THE BIBLE HAS NEVER BEEN WRONG.
IF YOUR RELIGION DON’T MATCH THE BIBLE THEN IT’S TIME TO CHANGE RELIGIONS.
JESUS CHRIST IS GOD, AND THE BIBLE IS HIS BOOK.
THE KJV BIBLE HAS NO ERRORS NOR CONTRADICTIONS.
THE BIBLE IS 100% SCIENTIFICALLY, AND HISTORICALLY, AND PROPHETICALLY CORRECT.
READ IT, STUDY IT, MEMORIZE IT, BELIEVE IT, AND OBEY IT, YOU CANNOT GO WRONG.
ONLY ONE LIFE AND SOON WILL BE PAST, ONLY WHAT IS DONE FOR CHRIST WILL LAST.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Iran is one of five countries not in the central banking system. They will be attacked or have an embargo. The world banking system has caused all the wars in the nineteenth century. Cuba, North Korea, Libya, and Sudan are the others, all are rogue nations. Do you see the pattern?
May 9th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I’m not assassin. Used it yesterday to see if he was the one impersonating me. He’s not.
THE UNGODLY SAY THE BIBLE IS FULL OF CONTRADICTIONS.
THEY DON’T KNOW GOD PUT THOSE SEEMINGLY CONTRADICTIONS IN THERE TO TURN THEM AWAY.
GOD ONLY WANTS THOSE THAT GIVE HIM AND HIS ONLY BOOK THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT.
ALL THE SEEMINGLY CONTRADICTIONS HAVE GOOD ANSWERS.
WEATHER THE UNGODLY EXCEPTS THOSE ANSWERS IS UP TO THEM, BUT USUALLY THEY DON’T REALLY CARE.
WHEN YOU SHOW THE UNGODLY SINNERS THEIR ANSWERS THEY HAVE 1000 MORE INSINCERE QUESTIONS TO THROW AT YOU. JUST LIKE THEY DID JESUS ABOUT THE RESURRECTION(who’s wife will she be?), THEY DID NOT WANT THE TRUTH, THEY JUST WANTED JESUS TO STUMBLE.
“…Hearing ye shall hear and shall not understand: and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should hear with their ears and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. Acts 28:26,27
May 9th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
REPENT OR PERISH
REPENT OR PERISH MEANS TURN OR BURN
IF YOU DON’T TURN FROM YOUR SIN OR FALSE RELIGION YOU WILL BURN IN HELL FIRE.
THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT REPENTANCE.
Jesus said; Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Luke 13:3,5
The Bible says; And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, not hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, not of their thefts. Revelation 9:20,21
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isaiah 55:7
He that covereth his sin shall not prosper: but he that confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Proverbs 18:13
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not decieved: neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers. nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor coverous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. I Cornithians 6:9,10
May 9th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Death is a natural part of life….if you do not fear death…then you have nothing to fear…..
get a grip and live life while you can you religious junkies!
May 9th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
#4 Preacher, How about trying a different approach in your preaching for a change. You tried the fear mongering care to try love mongering?
May 9th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
JESUS SAVES!
JESUS SAVES FROM SIN, DEATH, AND HELL.
ALLAH AND MOHAMMAD CANNOT SAVE YOU, BUDDA CANNOT SAVE YOU, YOUR CHURCH CANNOT SAVE YOU, YOUR PRIEST CANNOT SAVE YOU, AND YOU CANNOT SAVE YOURSELF.
ONLY JESUS CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU.
YOU MIGHT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST BUT IF YOU DON’T TURN FROM YOUR SINS YOU ARE STILL A SINNER ON YOUR WAY TO A BURING HELL BECAUSE ALL YOU HAVE IS A HEAD KNOWLEDGE BUT YOU NEED A HEART BELIEF.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 12:4
Jesus said; I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
May 9th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Here we go again with your attacks. I am starting to think you are here to cause division and breed hate.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Will you Jesus freaks quit ruining every single thread? You believe in a FAIRY TALE. That doesn’t make you special.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
I suggest the writer listen i to the 2nd hour of today’s AJ show. Jack Lamb stated his military sources told him there will be 10,000 targets hit, killing 52 million Iranians. (Those will not be nuclear reactors, either)
They want to not make the same mistake they made in Afganistan & Iraq, leaving civilians alive to come out fighting, as they still are.
That particular show was eye opening. I sugest everyone listen to it before the new show on Sunday. Really, listen.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
What makes more sense following a book that has innumerable errors or a book that has no errors known to man?
May 9th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
#8 Yasir, No, I am not trying to cause division but I am a Bible preacher. I realize that #7 could offend you or another muslim but I have to preach what I believe. Some muslims might get converted. That is my goal with the preaching statements; to convert, and I use the straight foward approach.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
#12 I think your preaching is ineffective and uninformative. Please remove the attack on other religions from your preaching. You can say Christianity is the true religion but why do you have to mention the other religions? Show people what Christianity offers without offending other people. Any religion that is intolerant of other faiths seems un-Godly to me.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Preacher go look at the arabic bible and tell me how they refer to God. You will be surprised to know that Allah in arabic means God and many Arab Christians use that name to refer to God. If Allah or God cant save you then dont expect Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) to save you either.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Especially in a country that always add the religion label (only when it comes to Muslims) in their media for any terrorist. However when someone is bad from their side they simply say he is not Christian.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
#13 Yasir, I believe in religious freedom. I don’t believe in perscuting people for what they believe just like the first Amendment, but preaching against what we believe is a false religion is biblical. I preach against what I believe is false religions and also calling sin by its name. There are people on here that don’t like me naming their sin.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
#14 Moe, Allah is a different god than the biblical God.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
#17, No we believe there is only one God and He is beyond human comprehension to imagine.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
#16 Please cite the verse that says Islam is a false religion.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
#16 It seems to me you are making up your own religion. As your preachings are not inline with the Bible.
May 9th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
#18 Yasir, I know you only believe in one god. What I am saying is that Allah is not just another name for Jehovah. Jehovah had a Son(Jesus Christ, God in the flesh), and Allah did not have a son. Jehovah is the God of the Bible and Allah is the god of the Quran. Maybe you have a flaw in your language by using Allah for the meaning of God. I am sure before the year 300 and Mohammad that they had another name for God than Allah.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
#21 Why does the name matter?
May 9th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Cant we have a dedicated room to talk about religion. Every time I come in here and read some of these articles. Almost every thread gets off the subject matter with many conversations or arguments started by Preacher.
Preacher if you haven’t noticed but the same people are on these threads mostly. We all know what your trying to convey. Some believe and some don’t. So be it, if your so concerned with saving souls than hit the streets. Your efforts are counter productive here at infowars.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
#19 Yasir, You know as well as I do that the word Islam is not in the Bible but this is what I have:
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Galatians 3:16
Galatians 4:22-31 (King James Version)
22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
#21 Preacher please you are turning everyone off with your rants.
Go find a church if ya want to expound the gospel!
This is not one here!
May 9th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
What if we called Yasir…. ba’alzubub? how would you like that? That is what is happening when you call YahVeh by another name that has connotations or synonymous to satan, same principle when you call the Almighty god or jesus when you know the difference.
Big problem today s, particularly with those in this government is, when they, particularly the occupant of 1600 Penn, when they say god, they are specifically referring to molech, lucifer, jabulan, ba’alzubub, remember when bush said,”I represent powers from beyond the stars?” he is referring to those of pleiades, the seven sisters, one of the domiciles of the fallen ones.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
#24 Can you explain to me how you came up with your conclusions from these verses?
May 9th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Who gives a flying fuck!
This is the topic of the article folks………..
A Secret Afghanistan Mission Prepares for War with Iran
May 9th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
We have perhaps more than a hundred names for the Almighty when we refer to any of them it brings up the concept of God in our head. I don’t understand what is with all the bickering about the name.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
hmm lets see both yasir and preacher…. The bible was written by a group of men at the First Council of Nicaea removing the gnostic gospels and anything that didnt go along with their agenda and that agenda was that jesus died on the cross for your sins.
All other books written around that time talks about jesus moving to the Kashmir region in Pakistan and India training under the great buddhist monks and muslim clerics who under stood the truth and didnt force others but instead help teach others.
Now the Muslim religion was infiltrated following the death of the prophet by the jesuits they even brag about doing this in some of their books the vatican published do enough research you will find these books yourself. Now this is the split between shia and sunni, jesuits taking the side of the cousin of Muhammad who wanted power splintering islam before it ever got off the ground.
Its time to put aside religion and follow truth and justice, we are leaving this age of belief and superstition and moving into the age of knowledge. Religions are opium for the masses they dull your senses, cloud your judgment, and give you the idea that YOU are right and everyone else is the enemy. you are becoming extinct just like the dinosaurs.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
If you don’t like a certain comment, skip over it, don’t read it, easy… this is still a Christian nation and this is still a Christians Website /forum, I am not here to rant about my beliefs, but when someone speaks a falsehood or asks a question, and there are other believers here, I am going to correct and or answer them, that is the mandate of any believer, even when we disagree with one another, we are all here to edify one another, Do y’all hate Generals Washington and Patton? what about our intrepid founders? they were believers and they did not refrain from speaking their minds just as y’all do, this is a Christians website who does not cuss, yet people speak profanity here, it is called freedom of speech, how does this hurt you? There are many truths that have been obscured by the communists and the illuminists who have brought this country to its knees and these issues need to be corrected.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Instead of complaining about my and Preacher’s posts, leave your comment about the topic and move on to another story.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
#28VNV: I fuckin’ agree with that…OVER!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Highwayman, that was the dumbest, most historically, unfactual bunch of revisionist, blasphemous, empty crap I have ever read, you are leading people to perdition with that mess, buddhism is just a philosophy, there are too many proven facts of the scriptures and fulfilled and fulfilling prophesy in the Holy scriptures to discount them, that gnostic/illuminist garbage, is the philosophy of satan, the ones that trash such as bush and obama and oprah follow and the precise reason we are knee deep in Armageddon, because the truths of the scriptures are steadily proven true and man in his pathetic vanity ignores them and wants to, just as satan, contend that he is god, 3-22 is the way to hades.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
#34 Couldn’t agree more Fred.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
OK, here we go… enter rabbit hole here:
http://www.tacticalwarfighterg.....nology.php
May 9th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
if you are Christian I hope it is of the Christian Science version or Esoteric Christianity. Of course there is Good and Evil.
Of course there is not a Satan. (Have you heard of Mythology? Ancient knowledge coded in allegories and fairy tales? Not literally true.)
Mainstream Christianity has many values and morals that are laudable. However, The Pope burned the library of Alexandria. Why are Christians scared of knowledge and who appointed you to decide for the rest of us?
May 9th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Highwayman, you said:
“Its time to put aside religion and follow truth and justice, we are leaving this age of belief and superstition and moving into the age of knowledge.”
This sounds like the political platform of the Antichrist.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
#35 In regards to your description of Highway’s misinformation and inaccuracies. However the other part from Buddhism and following I haven’t looked into.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:40 pm
Actually, we, millions of us give a flying f#$%k, because that is the nature of the entire dilemma we face, death occultist bush is in afghanistan because his satanist family dictated he go there and free the poppy fields, which, coincidentally is his occultist nom de plume, now, because the occultist powers that be have decreed that they must commandeer all of the middle east and bring it to subjection for their personal gains, he /they are diverting their military resources to Iran, this plan has been in the works since before WW1 as have all world wars, this is to ultimately destroy the islam they created through the vatican and ultimately create wars between Christianity and islam leaving, in the words of satanist adam weishaupt, 1776, only the unbelievers,atheists and the rest who will be their slaves to be dispatched at wil..what you are missing is that this all has to do with religion, the religion of satan in the process of destroying every vestige of the free will of man, through various attacks, many of their successes being witnessed here with so many being confused about and hating religion and the true teachings of the Messiah Yashuah and His Father, our creator YahVeh, so religion is very relevant.
Study adam weishaupt, the illuminati and their plans for the three world wars, this has been the plan for centuries.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Preacher, I have come to the conclusion that you are an agitator. A fucking leftfield agitator but one no less.
You are totally unable to make even the slightest on-topic comment on the stories you comment on.
Why is this?????????????
Ps Why F16s? Surely this alleged mission is of the type that B1,B2,F117 were built for?
May 9th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Which Christians believe in Evolution?
Those are the ones I want to be friends with.
The others scare the living daylights outta me.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Well, thanks Yasir, I am trying to keep it to a dull roar because I have so many times given all the sources and proofs of these things, then comes new people who don’t know and I have to reiterate it.
splitrockresearch.com
theexoduscase.com
theexodusconspiracy.com
May 9th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Fred Jarrell I wasent implying that buddhist or muslim or any religion is better than another I think along with Christianity they are all equally full of shit. Not saying Jesus or Muhammad were prophets with critically important messages to tell, but that the people who follow these men have had and still do have self-serving intrests and the first objective of these is to mislead you.
Also Take a look at who wrote the gospels who wrote the book of john, who wrote the King James Version?
It seems far more likely that instead of a God Inspired book that led to Millions of peoples death during the Inquisition, (crusades and even war in iraq now) it was a book written by men knowing, the builders of society to mold and craft a new society in the image of themselfs a biggited religion to have the sheep follow while they themselfs follow the teachings of the light or of lucifer.
Jesus was a prophet, Muhammad was a prophet, Budda was a prophet all with equally important messages to say. but that man in his ego-self uses them all in their self intrest.
RELIGION IS THE OPIUM OF THE MASSES
May 9th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Buddhism is a non-Vedic Aryan religion not a philosophy.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
A Christian who believes in the retard unfounded socialist theory of evolution which is the foundation of nazism, fascism, communism, socialism and marxism, without which, the thing could not be, sin qua non. that twit would be an oxymoron, doublespeak nonsense!
May 9th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Jeez guess ya’ll can’t read a long article I posted .
Lame brains!
Guess you will hold up religion in front of ya when they come for you.
I have a bible, don’t shoot, BANG!
May 9th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Are you willing to gamble your eternal life?? Well maybe there isn’t a satan, or gee maybe there isn’t a Jesus (Sarcasim). Don’t take a chance! I do not want to spend my eternal life In a burning hell, even if there is the tiniest chance it does not exist This Life is so short, Like the Blink of an eye. The Bible say’s the road to Heaven will be very narrow, and you can figure out the rest.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
#48 I agree with you Fred on that.
May 9th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
#44
He can’t comment, won’t get his head out of his ass long enough to read anything!
May 9th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Never was a christian nation, never will be. I will NOT live under the heel of christofascists nation any more than I will live under a luciferian fascist nation. Religion is religion and is what CAUSED the entire illuminati mess. All religions are nothing but opinion falsely elevated to the status of absolute truth in the feeble minded. A reasonable man can see this and express his faith AS the opinion that it is instead of expecting the world to bow to their own OPINION as if it was truth. Most religious people are unable to make this distinction. Remember luciferianism is just another sect in the judeo/christian/islamic tradition. Trading one oppressive whackburger cult for another is not progress.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Highway, study intently my post with the sources demonstrating that the Exodus event is true, and if the Red Sea was parted, then much credence is lent to the rest of the scriptures, including the flood, the giants and both Archs, the smaller of which is in the possession of the fedgov.
The scriptures did not cause any murder, though the Most High did instruct the killing of many abortions and abominations such as those watchers prior to the flood for defiling our women and creating chimeras as they are now, the killing of the homosexuals at sodom and gomorrah and the rest, but secular man has murdered more than anyone pretending to be Christian , such as the bush’s, 150 million last century were murdered because of the flawed logic of evolution and by laws written under the bulwark of tyranny, that is safety, read Lethal laws by Aaron Zelman and The Exodus case by Lennart Moller.
The contention that more people are murdered by religion is another satanist/iluminist lie.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
#53 Where is your article Vet Nam Vet? Why do you seem angry?
May 9th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
When the time comes Vet, Oh I also am a Vietnam Vet. I will have Rifle in hand, Bible in back pocket!! Shoot first ask questions later. I am a warrior against the NWO!!
We do have a right as christians to defend our Family, and property, even if we must kill! No problem.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
Right back atchya Vietnam Vet, I used to respect you, now you’re just another dupe who wants to silence those with whom you disagree and don’t understand, that is not respectable nor intelligent.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
#57 try Comment #40
May 9th, 2008 at 4:04 pm
“Those who look for theirs on Earth would find what life it truely worth. So now you’ve seen the light, stand up for your right”
Why are you waiting your entire biological life, trembling in fear, of Satan or Shaitan, when you could be enjoying LIFE now!?
The Yezidi Sect in Iraq, an offshoot of Kurds, acutally ‘worship’ Satan. Since Satan was a fallen angel, and the Gods have cleary forsaken us, they believe the angel, satan, will help them achieve salvation. They do not sacrifice children, engage in pedophilia, and are generally warm hearted pious folks. They just happen to worship the devil.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Evolution is not the basis of all those ‘isms you refered to fred.
Non scientific IMPLEMENTATIONS of evolution theory by nihalistic sociopaths and aristocracy is the basis of eugenics, thats it.
For an example of the non science of eugenics, HOW CAN DECREASING THE SIZE AND VARIATION OF A GENE POOL (ie genocide) INCREASE THE HEALTH OF A GENE POOL?
Answer – It cant. It make the population more genetically uniform and places it closer to extinction.
Thus eugenics is a non-science. Because it corrupted from a field of science does not make it scientific.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
#59 Fred we should stay on the articles subject, Is that wrong?
I am totally turned off by organized religion.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Do’nt call me a Jesus freak, unless you can back up what you say. It’s not my fault you have an empty life. I am a believer with a safe full of weapons, and 20,000 rounds of ammo.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
No more Religion, Later Vet, and no hard feelings.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
in the words of Thomas Jefferson who Founded this country you say is christian: “Christianity will go into the history books as another story and myth with the likes of Pathagoris, Perseus, and Zeus. It will be cherished and loved for what it is not was it claimed to be.”
– from a Letter written to John Adams 1812
May 9th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Fred,
You make some interesting informed points. We are all on the same team here by virtue of communicating on this site. You are abosultely correct that misuse of ‘evolution’ theory led to eugenics and the Holocaust. When a man is given the power to ‘define’ other men he is given the power to kill.
However, the evidence for evolution is overwhelming and will continue to be as we uncover the fossil records and decode DNA. Christians do accept the the Earth is not flat correct?
At some point the debate will be over and fundamentalists will generally submit that evolution is real.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
*not what it claimed to be (spelling error)
May 9th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Since the system moderates any comment with more that one llink in it like my Post #40,
Was and hold it back,
I will repaste it with the links taken out and see what happens and then ya’ll can
read it!!!
________________________________________
Rense.com
________________________________________
The Sunburn – Iran’s Awesome
Nuclear Anti-Ship Missile
The Weapon That Could
Defeat The US In The Gulf
By Mark Gaffney
11-2-4
A word to the reader: The following paper is so shocking that, after preparing the initial draft, I didn’t want to believe it myself, and resolved to disprove it with more research. However, I only succeeded in turning up more evidence in support of my thesis. And I repeated this cycle of discovery and denial several more times before finally deciding to go with the article. I believe that a serious writer must follow the trail of evidence, no matter where it leads, and report back. So here is my story. Don’t be surprised if it causes you to squirm. Its purpose is not to make predictions history makes fools of those who claim to know the future but simply to describe the peril that awaits us in the Persian Gulf. By awakening to the extent of that danger, perhaps we can still find a way to save our nation and the world from disaster. If we are very lucky, we might even create an alternative future that holds some promise of resolving the monumental conflicts of our time. –MG
Last July, they dubbed it operation Summer Pulse: a simultaneous mustering of US Naval forces, world wide, that was unprecedented. According to the Navy, it was the first exercise of its new Fleet Response Plan (FRP), the purpose of which was to enable the Navy to respond quickly to an international crisis. The Navy wanted to show its increased force readiness, that is, its capacity to rapidly move combat power to any global hot spot. Never in the history of the US Navy had so many carrier battle groups been involved in a single operation. Even the US fleet massed in the Gulf and eastern Mediterranean during operation Desert Storm in 1991, and in the recent invasion of Iraq, never exceeded six battle groups. But last July and August there were seven of them on the move, each battle group consisting of a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier with its full complement of 7-8 supporting ships, and 70 or more assorted aircraft. Most of the activity, according to various reports, was in the Pacific, where the fleet participated in joint exercises with the Taiwanese navy.
But why so much naval power underway at the same time? What potential world crisis could possibly require more battle groups than were deployed during the recent invasion of Iraq? In past years, when the US has seen fit to “show the flag” or flex its naval muscle, one or two carrier groups have sufficed. Why this global show of power? The news headlines about the joint-maneuvers in the South China Sea read: “Saber Rattling Unnerves China”, and: “Huge Show of Force Worries Chinese.” But the reality was quite different, and, as we shall see, has grave ramifications for the continuing US military presence in the Persian Gulf; because operation Summer Pulse reflected a high-level Pentagon decision that an unprecedented show of strength was needed to counter what is viewed as a growing threat in the particular case of China, because of Peking’s newest Sovremenny-class destroyers recently acquired from Russia.
“Nonsense!” you are probably thinking. That’s impossible. How could a few picayune destroyers threaten the US Pacific fleet?” Here is where the story thickens: Summer Pulse amounted to a tacit acknowledgement, obvious to anyone paying attention, that the United States has been eclipsed in an important area of military technology, and that this qualitative edge is now being wielded by others, including the Chinese; because those otherwise very ordinary destroyers were, in fact, launching platforms for Russian-made 3M-82 Moskit anti-ship cruise missiles (NATO designation: SS-N-22 Sunburn), a weapon for which the US Navy currently has no defense. Here I am not suggesting that the US status of lone world Superpower has been surpassed. I am simply saying that a new global balance of power is emerging, in which other individual states may, on occasion, achieve “an asymmetric advantage” over the US. And this, in my view, explains the immense scale of Summer Pulse. The US show last summer of overwhelming strength was calculated to send a message.
The Sunburn Missile
I was shocked when I learned the facts about these Russian-made cruise missiles. The problem is that so many of us suffer from two common misperceptions. The first follows from our assumption that Russia is militarily weak, as a result of the breakup of the old Soviet system. Actually, this is accurate, but it does not reflect the complexities. Although the Russian navy continues to rust in port, and the Russian army is in disarray, in certain key areas Russian technology is actually superior to our own. And nowhere is this truer than in the vital area of anti-ship cruise missile technology, where the Russians hold at least a ten-year lead over the US. The second misperception has to do with our complacency in general about missiles-as-weapons probably attributable to the pathetic performance of Saddam Hussein’s Scuds during the first Gulf war: a dangerous illusion that I will now attempt to rectify.
Many years ago, Soviet planners gave up trying to match the US Navy ship for ship, gun for gun, and dollar for dollar. The Soviets simply could not compete with the high levels of US spending required to build up and maintain a huge naval armada. They shrewdly adopted an alternative approach based on strategic defense. They searched for weaknesses, and sought relatively inexpensive ways to exploit those weaknesses. The Soviets succeeded: by developing several supersonic anti-ship missiles, one of which, the SS-N-22 Sunburn, has been called “the most lethal missile in the world today.”
After the collapse of the Soviet Union the old military establishment fell upon hard times. But in the late1990s Moscow awakened to the under-utilized potential of its missile technology to generate desperately needed foreign exchange. A decision was made to resuscitate selected programs, and, very soon, Russian missile technology became a hot export commodity. Today, Russian missiles are a growth industry generating much-needed cash for Russia, with many billions in combined sales to India, China, Viet Nam, Cuba, and also Iran. In the near future this dissemination of advanced technology is likely to present serious challenges to the US. Some have even warned that the US Navy’s largest ships, the massive carriers, have now become floating death traps, and should for this reason be mothballed.
The Sunburn missile has never seen use in combat, to my knowledge, which probably explains why its fearsome capabilities are not more widely recognized. Other cruise missiles have been used, of course, on several occasions, and with devastating results. During the Falklands War, French-made Exocet missiles, fired from Argentine fighters, sunk the HMS Sheffield and another ship. And, in 1987, during the Iran-Iraq war, the USS Stark was nearly cut in half by a pair of Exocets while on patrol in the Persian Gulf. On that occasion US Aegis radar picked up the incoming Iraqi fighter (a French-made Mirage), and tracked its approach to within 50 miles. The radar also “saw” the Iraqi plane turn about and return to its base. But radar never detected the pilot launch his weapons. The sea-skimming Exocets came smoking in under radar and were only sighted by human eyes moments before they ripped into the Stark, crippling the ship and killing 37 US sailors.
The 1987 surprise attack on the Stark exemplifies the dangers posed by anti-ship cruise missiles. And the dangers are much more serious in the case of the Sunburn, whose specs leave the sub-sonic Exocet in the dust. Not only is the Sunburn much larger and faster, it has far greater range and a superior guidance system. Those who have witnessed its performance trials invariably come away stunned. According to one report, when the Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani visited Moscow in October 2001 he requested a test firing of the Sunburn, which the Russians were only too happy to arrange. So impressed was Ali Shamkhani that he placed an order for an undisclosed number of the missiles.
The Sunburn can deliver a 200-kiloton nuclear payload, or: a 750-pound conventional warhead, within a range of 100 miles, more than twice the range of the Exocet. The Sunburn combines a Mach 2.1 speed (two times the speed of sound) with a flight pattern that hugs the deck and includes “violent end maneuvers” to elude enemy defenses. The missile was specifically designed to defeat the US Aegis radar defense system. Should a US Navy Phalanx point defense somehow manage to detect an incoming Sunburn missile, the system has only seconds to calculate a fire solution not enough time to take out the intruding missile. The US Phalanx defense employs a six-barreled gun that fires 3,000 depleted-uranium rounds a minute, but the gun must have precise coordinates to destroy an intruder “just in time.”
The Sunburn’s combined supersonic speed and payload size produce tremendous kinetic energy on impact, with devastating consequences for ship and crew. A single one of these missiles can sink a large warship, yet costs considerably less than a fighter jet. Although the Navy has been phasing out the older Phalanx defense system, its replacement, known as the Rolling Action Missile (RAM) has never been tested against the weapon it seems destined to one day face in combat. Implications For US Forces in the Gulf
The US Navy’s only plausible defense against a robust weapon like the Sunburn missile is to detect the enemy’s approach well ahead of time, whether destroyers, subs, or fighter-bombers, and defeat them before they can get in range and launch their deadly cargo. For this purpose US AWACs radar planes assigned to each naval battle group are kept aloft on a rotating schedule. The planes “see” everything within two hundred miles of the fleet, and are complemented with intelligence from orbiting satellites.
But US naval commanders operating in the Persian Gulf face serious challenges that are unique to the littoral, i.e., coastal, environment. A glance at a map shows why: The Gulf is nothing but a large lake, with one narrow outlet, and most of its northern shore, i.e., Iran, consists of mountainous terrain that affords a commanding tactical advantage over ships operating in Gulf waters. The rugged northern shore makes for easy concealment of coastal defenses, such as mobile missile launchers, and also makes their detection problematic. Although it was not widely reported, the US actually lost the battle of the Scuds in the first Gulf War termed “the great Scud hunt” and for similar reasons.
Saddam Hussein’s mobile Scud launchers proved so difficult to detect and destroy over and over again the Iraqis fooled allied reconnaissance with decoys that during the course of Desert Storm the US was unable to confirm even a single kill. This proved such an embarrassment to the Pentagon, afterwards, that the unpleasant stats were buried in official reports. But the blunt fact is that the US failed to stop the Scud attacks. The launches continued until the last few days of the conflict. Luckily, the Scud’s inaccuracy made it an almost useless weapon. At one point General Norman Schwarzkopf quipped dismissively to the press that his soldiers had a greater chance of being struck by lightning in Georgia than by a Scud in Kuwait.
But that was then, and it would be a grave error to allow the Scud’s ineffectiveness to blur the facts concerning this other missile. The Sunburn’s amazing accuracy was demonstrated not long ago in a live test staged at sea by the Chinese and observed by US spy planes. Not only did the Sunburn missile destroy the dummy target ship, it scored a perfect bull’s eye, hitting the crosshairs of a large “X” mounted on the ship’s bridge. The only word that does it justice, awesome, has become a cliché, hackneyed from hyperbolic excess.
The US Navy has never faced anything in combat as formidable as the Sunburn missile. But this will surely change if the US and Israel decide to wage a so-called preventive war against Iran to destroy its nuclear infrastructure. Storm clouds have been darkening over the Gulf for many months. In recent years Israel upgraded its air force with a new fleet of long-range F-15 fighter-bombers, and even more recently took delivery of 5,000 bunker-buster bombs from the US weapons that many observers think are intended for use against Iran.
The arming for war has been matched by threats. Israeli officials have declared repeatedly that they will not allow the Mullahs to develop nuclear power, not even reactors to generate electricity for peaceful use. Their threats are particularly worrisome, because Israel has a long history of pre-emptive war. (
Never mind that such a determination is not Israel’s to make, and belongs instead to the international community, as codified in the Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT). With regard to Iran, the International Atomic Energy Agency’s (IAEA’s) recent report (September 2004) is well worth a look, as it repudiates facile claims by the US and Israel that Iran is building bombs. While the report is highly critical of Tehran for its ambiguities and its grudging release of documents, it affirms that IAEA inspectors have been admitted to every nuclear site in the country to which they have sought access, without exception. Last year Iran signed the strengthened IAEA inspection protocol, which until then had been voluntary. And the IAEA has found no hard evidence, to date, either that bombs exist or that Iran has made a decision to build them.
In a talk on October 3, 2004, IAEA Director General Mohamed El Baradei made the clearest statement yet: “Iran has no nuclear weapons program”, he said, and then repeated himself for emphasis: “Iran has no nuclear weapons program, but I personally don’t rush to conclusions before all the realities are clarified. So far I see nothing that could be called an imminent danger. I have seen no nuclear weapons program in Iran. What I have seen is that Iran is trying to gain access to nuclear enrichment technology, and so far there is no danger from Iran. Therefore, we should make use of political and diplomatic means before thinking of resorting to other alternatives.”
No one disputes that Tehran is pursuing a dangerous path, but with 200 or more Israeli nukes targeted upon them the Iranians’ insistence on keeping their options open is understandable. Clearly, the nuclear nonproliferation regime today hangs by the slenderest of threads. The world has arrived at a fateful crossroads.
A Fearful Symmetry?
If a showdown over Iran develops in the coming months, the man who could hold the outcome in his hands will be thrust upon the world stage. That man, like him or hate him, is Russian President Vladimir Putin. He has been castigated severely in recent months for gathering too much political power to himself. But according to former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, who was interviewed on US television recently by David Brokaw, Putin has not imposed a tyranny upon Russia yet. Gorbachev thinks the jury is still out on Putin.
Perhaps, with this in mind, we should be asking whether Vladimir Putin is a serious student of history. If he is, then he surely recognizes that the deepening crisis in the Persian Gulf presents not only manifold dangers, but also opportunities. Be assured that the Russian leader has not forgotten the humiliating defeat Ronald Reagan inflicted upon the old Soviet state. (Have we Americans forgotten?) By the mid-1980s the Soviets were in Kabul, and had all but defeated the Mujahedeen. The Soviet Union appeared secure in its military occupation of Afghanistan. But then, in 1986, the first US Stinger missiles reached the hands of the Afghani resistance; and, quite suddenly, Soviet helicopter gunships and MiGs began dropping out of the skies like flaming stones. The tide swiftly turned, and by 1989 it was all over but the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth in the Kremlin. Defeated, the Soviets slunk back across the frontier. The whole world cheered the American Stingers, which had carried the day.
This very night, as he sips his cognac, what is Vladimir Putin thinking? Is he perhaps thinking about the perverse symmetries of history? If so, he may also be wondering (and discussing with his closest aides) how a truly great nation like the United States could be so blind and so stupid as to allow another state, i.e., Israel, to control its foreign policy, especially in a region as vital (and volatile) as the Mid-East.
One can almost hear the Russians’ animated conversation:
“The Americans! What is the matter with them?” “They simply cannot help themselves.”
“What idiots!”
“A nation as foolish as this deserves to be taught a lesson”
“Yes! For their own good.”
“It must be a painful lesson, one they will never forget. “Are we agreed, then, comrades?”
“Let us teach our American friends a lesson about the limits of military power…”
Does anyone really believe that Vladimir Putin will hesitate to seize a most rare opportunity to change the course of history and, in the bargain, take his sweet revenge? Surely Putin understands the terrible dimensions of the trap into which the US has blundered, thanks to the Israelis and their neo-con supporters in Washington who lobbied so vociferously for the 2003 invasion of Iraq, against all friendly and expert advice, and who even now beat the drums of war against Iran. Would Putin be wrong to conclude that the US will never leave the region unless it is first defeated militarily? Should we blame him for deciding that Iran is “one bridge too far”?
If the US and Israel overreach, and the Iranians close the net with Russian anti-ship missiles, it will be a fearful symmetry, indeed.
Springing the Trap
At the battle of Cannae in 216 BC, the great Carthaginian general, Hannibal, tempted a much larger Roman army into a fateful advance, and then enveloped and annihilated it with a smaller force. Out of a Roman army of 70,000 men, no more than a few thousand escaped. It was said that after many hours of dispatching the Romans, Hannibal’s soldiers grew so tired that the fight went out of them. In their weariness they granted the last broken and bedraggled Romans their lives.
Let us pray that the US sailors who are unlucky enough to be on duty in the Persian Gulf when the shooting starts can escape the fate of the Roman army at Cannae. The odds will be heavily against them, however, because they will face the same type of danger, tantamount to envelopment. The US ships in the Gulf will already have come within range of the Sunburn missiles and the even more-advanced SS-NX-26 Yakhonts missiles, also Russian-made (speed: Mach 2.9; range: 180 miles) deployed by the Iranians along the Gulf’s northern shore. Every US ship will be exposed and vulnerable. When the Iranians spring the trap, the entire lake will become a killing field.
Anti-ship cruise missiles are not new, as I’ve mentioned. Nor have they yet determined the outcome in a conflict. But this is probably only because these horrible weapons have never been deployed in sufficient numbers. At the time of the Falklands war the Argentine air force possessed only five Exocets, yet managed to sink two ships. With enough of them, the Argentineans might have sunk the entire British fleet, and won the war. Although we’ve never seen a massed attack of cruise missiles, this is exactly what the US Navy could face in the next war in the Gulf.
Try and imagine it if you can: barrage after barrage of Exocet-class missiles, which the Iranians are known to possess in the hundreds, as well as the unstoppable Sunburn and Yakhonts missiles. The questions that our purblind government leaders should be asking themselves, today, if they value what historians will one day write about them, are two: how many of the Russian anti-ship missiles has Putin already supplied to Iran? And: How many more are currently in the pipeline?
In 2001, Jane’s Defense Weekly reported that Iran was attempting to acquire anti-ship missiles from Russia. Ominously, the same report also mentioned that the more advanced Yakhonts missile was “optimized for attacks against carrier task forces.” Apparently its guidance system is “able to distinguish an aircraft carrier from its escorts.” The numbers were not disclosed.
The US Navy will come under fire even if the US does not participate in the first so-called surgical raids on Iran’s nuclear sites, that is, even if Israel goes it alone. Israel’s brand-new fleet of 25 F-15s (paid for by American taxpayers) has sufficient range to target Iran, but the Israelis cannot mount an attack without crossing US-occupied Iraqi air space. It will hardly matter if Washington gives the green light, or is dragged into the conflict by a recalcitrant Israel. Either way, the result will be the same. The Iranians will interpret US acquiescence as complicity, and, in any event, they will understand that the real fight is with the Americans. The Iranians will be entirely within their rights to counter-attack in self-defense. Most of the world will see it this way, and will support them, not America. The US and Israel will be viewed as the aggressors, even as the unfortunate US sailors in harm’s way become cannon fodder. In the Gulf’s shallow and confined waters evasive maneuvers will be difficult, at best, and escape impossible. Even if US planes control of the skies over the battlefield, the sailors caught in the net below will be hard-pressed to survive. The Gulf will run red with American blood.
From here, it only gets worse. Armed with their Russian-supplied cruise missiles, the Iranians will close the lake’s only outlet, the strategic Strait of Hormuz, cutting off the trapped and dying Americans from help and rescue. The US fleet massing in the Indian Ocean will stand by helplessly, unable to enter the Gulf to assist the survivors or bring logistical support to the other US forces on duty in Iraq. Couple this with a major new ground offensive by the Iraqi insurgents, and, quite suddenly, the tables could turn against the Americans in Baghdad. As supplies and ammunition begin to run out, the status of US forces in the region will become precarious. The occupiers will become the besieged.
With enough anti-ship missiles, the Iranians can halt tanker traffic through Hormuz for weeks, even months. With the flow of oil from the Gulf curtailed, the price of a barrel of crude will skyrocket on the world market. Within days the global economy will begin to grind to a halt. Tempers at an emergency round-the-clock session of the UN Security Council will flare and likely explode into shouting and recriminations as French, German, Chinese and even British ambassadors angrily accuse the US of allowing Israel to threaten world order. But, as always, because of the US veto the world body will be powerless to act… America will stand alone, completely isolated.
Yet, despite the increasingly hostile international mood, elements of the US media will spin the crisis very differently here at home, in a way that is sympathetic to Israel. Members of Congress will rise to speak in the House and Senate, and rally to Israel’s defense, while blaming the victim of the attack, Iran. Fundamentalist Christian talk show hosts will proclaim the historic fulfillment of biblical prophecy in our time, and will call upon the Jews of Israel to accept Jesus into their hearts; meanwhile, urging the president to nuke the evil empire of Islam. From across America will be heard histrionic cries for fresh reinforcements, even a military draft. Patriots will demand victory at any cost. Pundits will scream for an escalation of the conflict.
A war that ostensibly began as an attempt to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons will teeter on the brink of their use.
Conclusion
Friends, we must work together to prevent such a catastrophe. We must stop the next Middle East war before it starts. The US government must turn over to the United Nations the primary responsibility for resolving the deepening crisis in Iraq, and, immediately thereafter, withdraw US forces from the country. We must also prevail upon the Israelis to sign the Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) and open all of their nuclear sites to IAEA inspectors. Only then can serious talks begin with Iran and other states to establish a nuclear weapon free zone (NWFZ) in the Mid East so essential to the region’s long-term peace and security. 10/26/04 “ICH”
*Mark Gaffney’s first book, Dimona the Third Temple? (1989), was a pioneering study of Israel’s nuclear weapons program. He has since published numerous important articles about the Mid-East with emphasis on nuclear proliferation issues.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
BTW IT IS ON THE SUBJECT TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
According to Hansis Cray about molecular biology he said it is impossible to evolve from apes according to DNA coding. Good luck finding info on him on the net though.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
#66, This is the motto of the Evolutionist;
I once was a tadpole when I began to begin. Then I was a frog with my tail tucked in. Then I was a money in a coconut tree. Now I’m a man with a P.H.D.
Evolution has no facts, and cannot be proved.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:20 pm
Once, a few years ago, I was in the Biloxi VA, my pastor had carried me there because my sciatic went nuts, we were there, I was sitting next to another Vet and we were talking about the Most High and things, I could see while we were talking, that Vet got red hot, he walked out missing his call to see the emergency room, I have another Vet friend, special forces who retired early due to a jump accident in Panama, he too hates the Almighty for the same reason the marklar does, because pedophiles infiltrate the ministry, particularly the roman church and destroy young men, but that goes both ways, most offenders are secular, and most people who call themselves Christian, like bush, do so to make others hate Christians by committing terrible acts, this is the objective of our spiritual enemy, I understand some of their anger at man for doing these things, but the Almighty did not nor did His precious son commit any of these acts, their hatred is misplaced and misdirected, they should be hating and blaming satan, he is the god of this world and inspires men to evil, he is the one who inspires man to do terrible things, it would rather behove those who have been wronged to rebel against the one who actually caused their dilemma, satan! rebellion to tyranny,”satan” is obedience to the Almighty.
If we had from the beginning done our mandate as Genesis says and destroyed , subdued and had dominion over evil, we would not be suffering the treachery we are, our men would not be in afghanistan freeing the poppy fields or staging for Iran to commandeer the middle east when it was occultists on our own soil who blew up our buildings, aircraft and murders every day our people with tasers and the rest.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
I guess we know who will be our General Washington.
NamVet you should change you name to War College Professor.
I went crosseyed trying to read the post. Not to mention you bumped my illustrious response to Fred.
I too have heard, through the grapevine, that China has our Navy in check. They have Submarines following everything. Ever heard that? Also something about a secret asian army or assasins. Including Ninjas.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Im not gonna say 100% we come from apes, but evolution is fact. MANY MANY MANY animals removed from their natural habitat, sometimes in only mer 20 years will grow extra parts, learn to swim….blah blah. Take those tree fish……..50 years ago, they NEVER came out of the water……now, they sometimes spend 80% of there time out of water, in trees. Water disappeared, spawning ground lost, so they learned to come out of the water. Its happened with millions and millions of species. So you cant really argue evolution, its a fact. The only problem with the insane church people is the bible…..with out the bible, people would just say god made us evolve, but since that would kill the bible, it will never happen.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
Thanks for the compliment Natural, but I used to be duped into believing that mess, I tried to prove the Almighty and His creation was man made stories, but being a scientist myself, I came full circle, I used to hate Him to because my dad died, I hated life and burned the bible, but then a decade later, i realised the error of my ways and logic. I will never turn back to hat dark mentality, there is too much evidence of the scriptures and no proof of the socialist darwin theory.
OK Viet nam Vet, I appreciate that and actually, I agree with your posture on organized religion, it has been corrupted, yes, I have made my points and glad you’re here, carry on brother.
Esprit de corp! Follow Me!
May 9th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
The problem is not with other countries attacking your troops, it is with the internal corruption that could attack them.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Fred,
I ain’t argueing against intelligent design. And you can call the “intelligent designer” anything you want.
But, …woman came form Adam’s rib?
The Dinosaur bones were put here as a trick by Satan?
And the Earth is 4000 years old?
Sorry I would have more to throw at you if I was a fundamentalist.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
#74 Ranger, A fish staying out of the water is a long way from monkeys becoming people. When scientist find a bone in the ground all they know is that something died, they don’t know if they had any children.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
#74 Animals probably evolve. However, Darwin’s theory is not a fact. Show me a text book that refers to it as fact and not theory.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
Did they also drill machiavelli into your head Ranger? Please, but, I promised Vietnam Vet, so I am letting go of that topic here for today.
I have said all I can about the Afganistan farce, except that it is too bad they destroyed that country, they used to fabricate fines weapons in the desert, we need some of those blacksmiths over here, I suppose all those who could fashion weapons are dead or in gitmo, can’t have competition with the military industrial complex.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Porky; What if we (US) shoot our wad on Iran now and 2012 is the real deal? We’ll be SOL.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
alright i gotta go watch the lies on the teevee seeyalllater
May 9th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
where do property rights come from?
May 9th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
2012 is when man will transcend death. That is the ‘cosmic shift’. Through neurochemistry (DPT/DMT/Spirit Molecule) we will mimic biological death and find out where the ’soul’ goes. And then this damn arguement can be over forever! evolution, aint it grand?
May 9th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
#77 Look at these unbelievable statements from evolutionist.
The Earth is billions of years old. NO WAY TO PROVE THIS.
Man evolved from monkeys. NO WAY TO PROVE THIS.
The Bible does talk of dinosaurs in the book of Job: behemoth and leviathan.
Did you notice when God took Adam’s rib to make Eve that he put him to sleep. This is the first anistedic. The man who invented anistedic got the idea from this verse.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
#81 Iran has a strong military they are not like Iraq under sanctions for decades. It would be a blood bath for the whole region.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:47 pm
I don’t know what you are talking about natural light, dinosaurs were the greast lizards, the dragons, here at the same time as man but wasted in the flood along with ba’al fallen ones, the neophilia, who bush ostensibly answers to, the almighty created Adamu and then Hawara, Eve, prior to that, He had made others, but Adam and his help meet were of a special lineage that were to subdue and have dominion, they were to be the priests and the priestly line, til ba’al defiled her then him and created the serpent seed line, yes, she concieved Adams and ba’als seed at the same time, twins basically, to grasp this, it behoves you to fore-go the English which was dumbed down to accommodate illiterate subjects of the crown and rome, study the interlinear and the concordance, churchianity is controlled by the pastors mandate to instruct at a third grade level, break free and find a good hebrew scholar.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
This isn’t no Iraq, they a air defense system besides a bunch of anti aircraft tracers rounds, they have Interceptors and S.A.M. We go in there with a air campaign they will can and will hit Israel. Guaranteed.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
naturallight; This thing in Burma is scary. Our (US) hurricane season starts on June 1.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
#89 citizen, Do you live in the gulf coast area?
May 9th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
It also states that there were those who were skilled to “raise Leviathan”.
So , by your ancient line of reasoning, does that mean Magick exists?
May 9th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
#91, Do you think people are smarter today than the ancients?
May 9th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Citizen go read Tim Leary’s ‘Musings on Metamorphoses’
It put my mind at ease as he explains the role of DNA and (’gads) evolution.
Say what you will about the guy but he was anti-left and anti-right .
He also ingested loads of the most powerful mind drugs known. Not that the LSD was his sole source of information.
May 9th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
#92-
in some ways yes. in some ways no. what does that have to do with anything?
May 9th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Have a wonderful evening and beautiful morning everyone.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Yaisr. thanks I am also Out.
Enjoyed the dialogue everyone.
stay safe.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Those Ionospheric scientists up there in Alaska I’ve heard manipulate weather patterns, ocean temperatures, and seismic activity. Who knows. I met a chick once who was straight up militant when came to exposing H.A.A.R.P. I don’t know, all that it entails, but I guarantee you we’ll never get the straight facts, if it is the weapon that ended the nuclear arm’s race and the Cold War. Would explain why we all haven’t burned in nuclear fire, or why we’ve never had a single foreign missile land in U.S. territory.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
#94, You said my ancient line of reasoning in #91, that is what it has to do with it.
1.We could not build the pyrimids of Egypt today even with out heavy equipment.
2.Farmers could read and understand the Federalist Papers whereas college students cannot.
An ancient kind of reasoning might be the best in some areas like the Bible.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
I’ve heard that Leviathan were actually the last dinosaurs, left after the comet. Dragon’s appear in writings all over the world from the ancient times. It can’t all be dispelled as myth, all together. They took the time to write this stuff down, regardless of who may have, misinterpreted or used the scripture to fit the their agenda, I try to keep an open mind. The bones tell a story. We’ll find the truth in the dirt someday.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
What if U.N. Security Council member Russia has already given Iran that which Israel and the U.S.A. has said will not be permited for Iran to have (because the U.S.A. has violated the U.S.S.R. break up treaties by placing U.S. military bases in the break away Asian Republics ?
What if Israel or the U.S.A. launch an unprovoked first strike on Iran, and in response sunburn cruise missles (flying 1 meter above water pushing a 2 meter wake at 1300 mph, deviating to target ,6 times Hiroshima nuclear warhead) are launched against anyone whom attacks them ?
In every eventuality the N.A.Z.I. NEO CON’S day’s are numbered ,they are toast .
All future trecherous traitorus false flag attacks are hereby prohibited
under pain of extreme predjudice.
Long live the American Revolution of 1776 ,the U.S. Constitution, with Liberty and Justice for all !!!
May 9th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Aaron Williams (#99): Then the Sebaceans got ahold of the Leviathan and forced them to become ships, living ships.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
The ancients were not cavemen or brutes, they were genus at agriculture engineering astronomy and almost all the other sciences. They were extremely literate as the vast amount of ancient writings show by there very existence and content. And they all wrote about dragons, separated by distance and oceans there was no collaboration between them. So dragons were dinosaurs! Now the question is did dinosaurs breath fire?
May 9th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
It all burned in Alexander Library and the rest hidden by the illuminated one’s. Hard to convince people they are slaves, when we’re literally decedents of God. There secrets keep hidden our true origins. I think we are way older than the official story leads us to believe. They knew way too much back, and even admitted back then that some of their knowledge had been lost forever. Fire and war sucks.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Thats why the phrase goes nothing new is under the sun…who said the ancients were dumb? and yet we got all our ideas from them and built over that. They gave us fire now we have lighters and so on, and still we cant build a freaking building that can last to stand like they did with all of their structures that lasted
May 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
The xtian preachers on this board really bug me. Don’t want your religion beliefs shoved down my throat, thank you very much. If your xtian god is for real, I don’t want anything to do with him. Rather go to hell.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I hear the Vatican has the largest collection of ancient scrolls and tablets and things even older than that. Things the general public and even those within the Church can’t see.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
#101
We’re talking about ancient technology and the case for dinosaurs. Some of our oldest writings are religious texts. Learn to appreciate your past a little more. Considering this a esoteric world, we should appreciate the explanations handed down through time, we’d still be huddled in a cave when the sun went down, scared shitless of the things trying to eat us, if it wasn’t the first shaman and holy men to guide us into the light. People forget not all spiritual people are turned away by doctrine. Look at ancient purification rights, it is perfect way to detoxify your system, strange they never got cancer? Huh
May 9th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I meant 105 that’s who I’m talking to.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:57 pm
That’s what we want to do, learn from a retard drug addict, who saturated his brainpan and wasted it with the garbage the CIA created and supplies our country, thanks to the poppy fields of Afghanistan, Croatia and south America.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Fred – “he too hates the Almighty for the same reason the marklar does”.
Gee, doesn’t your 10 demandments say something about not bearing false witness. Did I say that I hated god? Look again. You’ll find that I did not. The truth is that I am a Caycian mystic, which to the casual observer would make me a christian of sorts though I loath the term as I believe that most christians do not worship christ OR god but instead they worship a book, they worship the fellowship of the church where everybody agrees with them (at least on certain subjects), that they worship the priests and ministers who stand between them and god presuming to speak for the ancient of days as if they have an exclusive hotline to god’s ear. Whenever I hear the old “it says in the bible that” I get the same frustrated feeling as when somebody says “I saw it on TV”, and therefore it must be true, unquestionably.
When somebody says “I believe that…” they are making an honest declaration of faith but as soon as they start declaring absolute truths they are no longer speaking about god but for god. It’s not Jesus or God that I have a problem with, it is his loony cult members I have issues with.
It’s rather pathetic that christians so often assume that one is an atheist or “hates god” if they are not christian.
Blaming mankinds ills on “seculars” or atheists or homosexuals, or socialists, or wiccans, or any other label you want to stick on somebody is merely a way to avoid responsibility for the civilization that you and your ancestors have created. It’s their fault for believing this or doing that, it’s never my fault for not getting involved and adding my blood sweat and tears into creating something better, noooooooooo.
Want to save America? I’ll spill my blood beside you. Want to save America by turning it into a theocracy? I’ve already got one I’m trying to get rid of, thank you very much, but I have an extra bullet for you if you insist. I’d rather build bridges between the left and the right the faithful and the non-believers, the socialists and capitalists so we actually have a chance to do something about a group that is pure uncut evil no matter what your beliefs. You want to battle Satan? He’s a hydra with thirteen heads sitting right there in front of you but you’d rather push away those that would help you fight the good fight so you can take his place? Doesn’t make much sense to me. Granted I fume and rant on occasion at the christian crap but when someone starts firing your way it’s only self-defense to fire back.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Then sadly you will Alyson, why would you want that? if you knew what it is like, you wouldn’t want that.
The jist of the problems we face today are due to the fact the communists and illuminists/satanists have destroyed the Almighty’s word and turned the scriptures on its head, where does all this hate come from? when we win this battle against the satanist new world order, and let’s say, we all agree to acquiesce and let our faith and the truth of the scriptures go, now what do we have? we would soon be right back at the same place we were before fighting the war, all the reasons we are suffering this tyranny would still exist, there would be, as there are now, morons everywhere who, like obama/oprah and Mr. wright thinking they are god and again seek to rule over us with the eugenic/socialist eugenic ideology that we have now, if there is no Almighty and or His Son, why not murder? I am the god of my world, I should be able to kill who I want if they irritate me, why shouldn’t someone rape? maybe their intentions are good as the koran says and they just want to procreate, why not steal? why not dance around naked like retards around a big crappin owl with a burning baby in it, naked and suck on each others schlongs? why would that be wrong? we are the gods of our own world right?
And then, when the baby is crisp, we take an egg, dip it in the baby and worship the egg to increase fertility to appease some retard named ishtar. shoot, we can then have all kinds of phun, we could worship the serpent, build pyramids and rip out the hearts of innocents to appease…whoever, then run around naked again hollering “DIE DULL CARE!!!!”
It’ll be4 great, drug trash can freely get our kids hooked on CIA created drugs, we can grow poppy leaves in our backyard…oh…Waite, in our new world, under the united nations, we don’t have any property, I forgot comrad, of course then, we can go ahead and institute all of the Clinton’s socialist nightmare laws and laugh at public gatherings while the law tases people to death because they don’t want their children exposed to our brave new world, whoah!
Now, what would be the point in having a revolution only to return to the trash that is now oppressing us with their satanist/commie rat laws?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Aaaron –
I used to tell people I was running for pope and hoped I could count on their vote. They would usually chuckle and ask if I was catholic. I usually replied “no, I just want the keys to the Vatican vaults.”
The Vatican has in it’s possession an enormous wealth of historical texts and artifacts from all over the world, many of which were completely destroyed by missionaries other than the copy which the Vatican holds. The hoarding of this historical wealth hidden from the light of day is an historical atrocity rivaled only by the burning of the library of Alexandrea.
Poking around in the Vatican vaults for a few years with a team of historians and linguists at my disposal sounds like a kick ass time to me.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Fred Jarrell says: if there is no Almighty and or His Son, why not murder? I am the god of my world, I should be able to kill who I want if they irritate me, why shouldn’t someone rape?
This is why christians are so scary. Many of them simply can’t conceive of not being a maniacal killer/rapist if they didn’t have a vengeful god threatening them constantly. What that tells me is that they are truly evil people who are afraid of themselves because without religion they would devolve into animals. This does not make me think well of christians nor to trust them with political power. Scary shit man.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
i think religion is very scary. People should think for themselves. I don’t believe litarally in the bible, but i got my own morality. Don’t hurt anyone, try to repect everyone.. Why do you need a bible for that?
I see mindless, blended weird christians following their shepard literally like a herd of mindless sheep. “Oh well, i won’t do anything, it’s fate. And, after all, Jesus will return and save us”.
Yeah, well, have fun while you are waiting.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Alison (#105), Be careful of what you wish for.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
marklar, you are a broken unit and willingly ignorant, the satanists do all this trash, murder, rape,sacrifice and causing all the problems we are now collectively having to defend ourselves and our country against because we have an occultist president and those who pull the presidents strings and again, you want to turn that around and blame believers who do not want this trash, murder, rape and tyranny and all the other trash I enumerated, you are the scary ones retard, I have given you everything you need to know the truth, that you have been deceived and lied to and all the things you hate Christianity for are in fact caused by the luciferian/gnostics who want care for the world, care for humanity, care for life and the beauty of love and families to DIE, you are the scary one wanting that trash to persevere, you have betrayed your self and your position and your loyalties, the facts have been laid out before you time and time again and you want to live in darkness and drag others into perdition, to have your souls tormented forever for an unfounded hatred of something that does not cause pain, you have embraced the enemy that has hurt you and countless others, who has inspired so many weak morons to molest and murder women and children, IT HAS BEGUILED YOU OR YOU ARE A WILLING SLAVE TO IT!!!!
May 9th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
hey, to pick up the zeitgeist thought, if god loves you, why is there a hell to burn for an etarnal amount of time if you do something wrong?
Seems to me like a pretty scary god.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
satanist/commie??? For your information Fred the illuminati luciferians may have an agenda to use socialism just as they have used evil capitalism to further their aims but satanists are rabid right wingers. They believe they have the right to do unto others to pre-empt what others would do to them given the chance, a very far right way of thinking. Get your facts straight. The satanist sect of christianity is not socialist, their politics are more akin to those of a might makes right warlord type character who believes only in his own ability to con, lie, or intimidate others.
Socialism and capitalism are two sides of the same coin. Either can be used as a weapon and a tool of oppression. Would you care whether I beat you to death with a hammer or a monkey wrench. They’re both tools, abstract tools from the mind of man that can be used for good or evil. If you see a hammer coming towards your head don’t blame the hammer. Instead try getting of it’s way then tracing your way back up the hammer to find out who is wielding it, and whallah, there is your problem – not his religion, not his politics, not his race, not his gender, not his sexual orientation, not his culture, not his economics, not his reading preferences, just HIM.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Google Video “Zeitgeist refuted”. Your questions would be better addressed if you would take the time to read the Bible. I would reccomend it, you will be the wiser for it.
Hell is for evil souls to abide in, until they are thrown into the lake of fire. All you have to do to escape hell, is humble your pride before God, recieve Jesus into your heart, and ask God to save you and help you be a better person.
Pray to know the truth, seek it, and you will find it if you seek in truth and sincerity.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
“evil souls to abide in”
ok, like the burning of qitches during the inquisition, right?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
And please, before casting judgement on the book, because of what a-hole preachers and 501c3 treasonous churches have done, realize that they do NOT speak for God, and often do and preach things against the scriptures.
According to the Bible, it is not only our right to defend ourselves, but it is our responsibility to combat evil and maintain right standing government.
Not just brainwashed morons follow the Bible. Alex Jones and Officer Jack Mclamb are good examples of educated Christians.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
The evil Catholic Church tortured and murdered “accused” witches, protestants, and many other good people including Joan of Arc.
This is NOT the will of God, or the Bibles fault. The Bible advises us to forgive, and love our enemies, and pray for others.
I don’t see where stretching someone on the rack, boiling them, or putting them into an iron maiden falls under these guidelines.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
just more proof that religion has been used as an evil and wicked instrument time and timer over again.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
#117 Frank, According to the Bible(for there is no other way to know God) God loved(notice past tense) the world; God wants to save people from their sins but He does not love(present tense) everyone. The Bible says that God hates the wicked and those who loves violence. He loves those who loves Jesus Christ. So those who end up in Hell are not God’s children, and he does not love them. If they repent and believe on Jesus Christ they will love him and God the Father will love them. Those God loves will not end up in Hell even if they do something wrong. Then a true Christian does something wrong they will feel bad about it and get back right with God.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
so if you don’t believe in God, you are not one of god’s children and will burn in hell for eternity?
May 9th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Hey ya’ll there is a story about religion just been posted on infowars.
Gonna move your soap boxes over there? LOL
May 9th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
Frank, Just like people use someone’s name to slander it in these threads so also do people use the name of Christianty to slander it. Read the Bible and you will find out what true Christianty is; especially the words of Jesus Christ.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
Ah Fred, they only reason I talk to you at all is that I suspected their was a soul inside that religiously brain washed carcass of yours beyond that of the drooling god morons that I simply ignore. Guess you’re really just soulless dead meat fake christian filth, my bad. You are the one who will sit around doing jack shit while you wait for jesus to save you like a fucking superhero. Bow down to your masters in the NWO as they compel you to shoot in every direction but theirs. Dance puppet, dance!
I’ll ignore you like the rest of your inbred ilk from now on. I haven’t got the time to be debating an obvious retard any longer.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
No Frank. You will be judged according to your works. God knows the content of your heart, and where you belong. But beware- he sees right through all bullshiters. As long as you are sincere in your intentions, he sees that, and won’t condemn you.
Wether or not we want to admit it, we are all sinners, and need to repent. Otherwise, we are just a bunch of bull headed arrogant assholes puffed up with false vanity.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:03 pm
#126, Thanks, Vet, Might just do that also.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
i guess i won’t get around reading the bible. Already tried it and literally fell asleep after 3 sentences. it’s not really readable.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Marklar, who gave you the idea that us Christians are just sheep glassy eyed and waiting for some mystical pre trib rapture?
I am armed with guns, and I intend to defend the Constitution to the most bitter end if need be.
Please don’t stereotype Christians. Some of us are aware, and ready to fight.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
That’s Ok Frank. Just talk to God in your head, and pray he helps you understand things and lead you in the right way.
Even a simple “Arnold Jackson” prayes will suffice.
It takes different strokes to move the world.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
So people who believe in islam & buddism and all other religions also go to hell because they don’t believe in god, are not god’s children. Must be a hell of a hell down there. -.-
May 9th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
I don’t know if they go to hell or not. I do know that God is loving and merciful, and desires that none should perish. That’s a good question though. To answer, I would say that God knows and sees hearts, and no good people go to hell, no matter what they believe.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
#131 Frank, That is exactly what I was talking about before.
Past Post:
94, You said my ancient line of reasoning in #91, that is what it has to do with it.
1.We could not build the pyrimids of Egypt today even with out heavy equipment.
2.Farmers could read and understand the Federalist Papers whereas college students cannot.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
This applies to the Bible also. The KJV is written in the best English there is: it’s just like the Federalist Papers.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
#134 Frank, You know that most religions contradict each other, so how can they all be right? Why can’t there be a true religion and the rest false? Just like in basic math there is only one right answer and the rest are wrong no matter how much someone wants to believe the wrong answers are right.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
#135 Gabriel, If Jesus Christ is “the” way that means there is no other way. Right? It does not say “a” way.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
Concepts such as right and wrong in terms of philosophical and religious beliefs are moot. To understand the creator one must understand that the Creator is a many faced and multidimensional god. One must think in such a manor if they hope to even begin to understand “Creator.” The Creator that is with in is there to provide guidence and direction but most of us have been programmed too heavily to see beyond ones own existence. Defeat the Ego and realize that the beginning of all knowledge and wisdom is to admit that we know nothing.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Preacher. Jesus Christ ate and drank with sinners and prostitutes. I don’t think we should discourage new comers with ultimatums and threats.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
do you think Allah, Buddha, God, etc, etc are all the same?
One superior force, just different names & cultural tales?
May 9th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO!
ok its off topic, but i have been looking for something like this for a long time now!, and finaly ive found it,
in the past you may have seen me comment fairly viciously about jews, and zionists, when i have done this it was aimed at a certain type of jew!,
in the video, its only short by the way, you will see an orthordox jew trying to explain about the zionist scum!, when lo and behold one of the zionist jews makes an appearence, watch and understand the difference,
orthodox jews are very civil, polite and very god fearing!!!, dress a little funny lol, but are generally nice people, they do not believe in money or capitalism!
then see the contrast between him and the zionist jew!!!, he even accuses the TRUE orthadox jew of being an anti semmit!
hope this helps clear a few things up for people on the zionist/ jew topics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dSHl3C9kgY
May 9th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
“God”, for lack of better identification, is the idea of an intelligent creator. This concept weaves it’s way through most religions, and is largely supported by sound science.
In the end, there is only one big Kahuna. He will make himself known shortly, after the good people refuse to take the global ID into their right hand or forehead, in order to buy or sell.
Revelation 13.
Then, I won’t need to tell you about it, he will.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Born in 1809, Albert Pike predicted all 3 world wars, accurately in detail. Do a web search for Albert Pike and read a brief overview, you will not be dissapointed.
The third world war, he said, will pit “political Zionism” against “Islam”, and eventually draw all nations into a blood bath. The wars are orchestrated blood baths, with determined and controllable outcomes.
After all the Chaos, they will offer us their solution.
“No one shall enter the new age unless he, or she, will make a pledge to worship Lucifer.”-
David Spangler, United Nations director of planetary initiative
May 9th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
@142 i like these jews in the video. Nice guys.
So Zionism sound pretty bad…
May 9th, 2008 at 7:43 pm
#140 Gabriel, I eat and drink with them too but we should not water down the truth. Jesus never watered down the truth no matter who he was with.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
#140 Frank, No I believe that most are false gods. Also, They all have a certain religion connected with the different names. So it cannot be the same God with just different names.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Thank you #142, for posting that you tube link and helping to expose the political movement of Zionism, which is one world government under the thumb of the international bankers, which is diametrically opposed to the Torah believing Jewish faith. There has been a lot of confusion on this important issue and you helped to make a badly needed distinction between the two.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
ok guys, i think we Germans are responsable for the wild rampage of the Zionists.. we all know, the Zionists are somehow involved with 9/11, they are bulldozing palestinian civilians on a daily scale; the Zionists unjustly started wars and are still occupying the palestinian lands..
Now we hear about zionist involvement in that muslim homocide..
you know why? Because we drove them crazy. We killed 6 million of them. Now the chicken comes home to roost. The zionist elite never forgot about the suffering and now is on a wild rampage for it’s existence. They are paranoid and capable..
May 9th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Preacher. What you are implying, is that even if someone is a good person, if they don’t believe in Christ, or know him, they will go to hell.
If Forest Gump grew up abandoned on a desert island, would he go to hell just because a copy of the KJV didn’t float ashore?
I think the Bible itself supports my point. I am not trying to minimize the importance of Jesus, I am just trying to reason.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
#150 Gabriel, Do you believe the words of Jesus Christ?
He that believeth on him(the Son) is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the Son of God. John 3:18
May 9th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
hopefully people will understand where i come from now when i start to spout of about jews, the zionist jew is discusting towards his orthadox brother!,
my other one got banned lol 
im christian by the way not jewish lol
and GABRIEL, i agree with you on the subject you are talking about bud!,
it mark by the way using a different name
May 9th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
there is a difference between not believing and not understanding Preacher, this is clearly explained in the bible.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
only one third of the world is christian… and maybe only 20 % of those actually believe in Jesus and the bible!
MUST BE ONE HELL OF A FIRE
I think god doesn’t show up on this earth because he’s occupied with burning those damn pagans.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Interesting stuff.The title of this thread is “A secret Afghan mission..” Reads more like a text book example of “press their emotive buttons and stop them talking about real world issues at any cost”.Why don’t all you see-thru spooks fuck off and have a circlejerk/kill each other on y’r own time someplace else? ignore these paid trolls folks,and keep the REAL dialogue going.GREAT post about Sunburn btw VNV.
Love n Peace to all(even you spiritual molluscs) xoxo.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
“So Gump, have you found Jesus yet?”- Lieutenant Dan
“I didn’t know I was supposed to be lookin for him….”- Forest Gump
Preacher. Do people who are retarded or mentally handicapped go to hell because they can’t think strait enough to understand Jesus?
I think there is a broader picture here.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
#154 Frank, This is what Jesus said on that subject.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Like how some preachers hammer away about Romans 13. But isn’t there a broader picture, if you read the entire Bible in all it’s context?
I judge lightly, therefore hopefully I shall be judged the same.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Frank Schlözer
the people of germany are not resposible for the zionist agenda buddy, it has been going on since year 0
any jew or christian for that matter who seeks revenge is not following the bible, gods word,or the torah for that matter!
what they are following is the TALMUD
i will try to find a link now to explain this to people,
the TALMUD is the book the zionists are following and its beliefs.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
The straight and narrow!!!! Good scripture. Very wise. And I try not to worry about carnal necessities, and worry about Gods word first, who clothes the lillies of the fields.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Kop Killerz. Yez. “Karate for defense only”.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
#156 Gabriel, This should answer your question.
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. I Corinthians 7:14
May 9th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Unbelieving wife- not “evil” tare wife. There is a critical difference. For God tries the reigns and the hearts……
“Before you were formed in the womb, I knew you.”- God
“Come and inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”
May 9th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
#155 well, ok, religion is a diversion, but maybe it helps to understand it a little bit better. I see al these weird religious extremists in all corners and it might be a good idea to understand them to solve the problem.
I guess most of it is devide and conquer tactics. Some of them are on the CIA payroll (Romans-13 preachers). But i think there are also some real religious nuts out there who believe all this.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
#158 Gabriel, Have you ever read Romans 13 from the Living Bible?
May 9th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Gabriel A King —
“Marklar, who gave you the idea that us Christians are just sheep glassy eyed and waiting for some mystical pre trib rapture?”
Uhm, glassy eyed christian sheep gave me that idea mostly, I know all christians are not like that but their number IS legion. If I thought that, I wouldn’t listen to the likes of Alex Jones or Tex Marrs but I do listen to them and respect their opinions even when I disagree but I have absolutely no use or tolerance for absolutist zealot assholes whether they be religious, scientific, political, or philosophical. I find it enormously offensive to say I’m right your wrong and no other possibility exists, end of story and that being the case you and everyone like you is evil, end of story.
I’ve actually tried to get Fred to see that not all non-christians, just as not all christians, are responsible for the evils we face in the illuminati. The christian non-christian enmity is just as destructive as the left right enmity and is just as much of a false paradigm.
“I am armed with guns, and I intend to defend the Constitution to the most bitter end if need be.”
GOOD. Let’s get em. Just don’t make us fight another war right after by trying to create a theocratic christian nation that I would find to be just as oppressive and would have to fight. To tell the truth I don’t see how christians can fail to realize that secular people are actually their best friends when it comes to religious freedom. Any state sponsored religion is bound to turn into a state sponsored sect of that religion like the formerly state sposored church of england. Other sects are suppressed or at least marginalized by such a system. Keeping religion at arms length from government IS the only way to keep government out of religion. Our founding fathers knew this, America was ripe with preachers looking to codify their own denominations beliefs into law.
“Please don’t stereotype Christians. Some of us are aware, and ready to fight.”
Granted. I’m just concerned about whether I can fight beside you without getting a bullet in the back.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
#163 Gabriel, Who is the “you” God is talking to in those two verses? The first is Jeremiah, the second his disciples, not everyone.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
#162 Frank, You are right on that.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
http://video.google.com/videop.....iQKejsjfCQ
some of it will shock you.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
#166 Gabriel, That was not Frank, it was Marklar.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Oh brother…..zzzz.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
#166 my apologies to you. I wish i could understand the extense importance of these religious topics to you guys. Everyone should be free to believe what he wants.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Gee whiz Marklar, you are so mistrusting- why don’t I just let you shoot me in the back? The only real enemy is the NWO dude. Sorry your so polorized against all Christians, and stereotype us.
You should know, I don’t go to church, and I despise all organized religion and 501c3 Christianity.
Iv’e been truthin for over 25 years now. You need to become better at identifying real enemies. Sure, I will fight by your side against the NWO.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Comment #170. FINALLY!!!!! Someone who respects others 1st amendment rights!
S’all good Frank.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
That’s not what I said Gabriel. You are misconstruing or intentionally misquoting me.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Gee Marklar, what can I do to make you happy? It’s starting to look like nothing. I deeply apoligize for not being lazy, and reading the Bible.
Maybe I should have kicked up my feet and watched Desperate Housewhores!!! Then I would not offend you.
I will try and be lazier in the future, and not read anymore. Or maybe join a church and subject myself to the authority of a middle man, so I fit neatly into your picture of a brainwashed Christian.
Maybe i’ll throw my gun away too, so I fit into your stereotypes.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
There ain’t no such crappin thing as rapture mark, that is another commie lie, and there ain’t no crappin satanist sect of Christianity, that is an oxymoron, you have no idea what you are talking about, you have no facts, you cannot and have not refuted or rebutted intelligently any of my sources or the Holy scriptures and no matter how hard I try, I just can’t get offended by whoever you are, you don’t know me, you don’t know what I do or who I am, you are lost and that saddens me, when we beat down the new world order, 4th reich, you will not be there because you have chosen the wrong side, that is of the wicked one, in that you have only expressed love for evil, I/my people are going the way of the founders, that will be our legacy and contribution however many of us survive physically, the remainder will not suffer in hades you have chosen the path of the pharaohs losing army, is that what you want for any kids in your group? you will not even give them a chance, you are condemning them by keeping them under an umbrella of ignorance, that is sad.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Fred Jarrell. Actually, there is a rapture. Jesus describes it in Matthew, when the angels are dispatched to gather the saints. But it is a POST tribulation rapture.
No Christian shall be accounted until thier faith is tried in the fire.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
As far as Satanism goes, sign up like I did. Interesting dialogue. http://www.churchofsatan.com
or http://www.templeofset.com
If anyone needs to get saved, it’s these bone heads.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
No there isn’t, that is modern construct since the early communist infiltrations and the illuminists in a subterfuge effort to cause exactly what is happening today, good Christians are losing their will to fight because these pew potato pastors of churchianity are beguiling them, its the same sort of ruse as the lie of separation of church and state, that mess isn’t in our constitution, it is in the modern soviet constitution article 52, to relieve our children of biblical studies in our schools which are not now and never were “the government”, and worse today, FERMA and the ecumenical evangelists under the direction of the dirty vatican are mistranslating Romans 13 to dupe the unwashed into believing they are supposed to be subservient to the whims of any and all government, this is a nationwide lie and plan to lead separate, segregate, search, secure and speed and tag,”the 5Ss and T” to the haliburton rape and death camps, more satanism…if you people want to understand the scriptures, you have to get back to the basics, this isn’t the place for bible study, it would be a hundred times more lengthy than it is, what you have to do is strip away all the modern translations and the crucial parts that were relocated by the communists and illuminsts such as demon child adam weishaupt, when he came here in 1775 and began the modern version of the masons and the infiltrations made by the communists of the USA since the 50s, they are responsible for all this confusion you are having, all to pacify and enslave the masses while making them suffer the allusion they are free, just like mark the lost does. Use the concordance and edify yourselves.
May 10th, 2008 at 6:53 am
#126 Gabriel, I agree with this post fullheartedly. Your perspective seems very well educated and reasonable. Muslims believe that The Almighty may forgive any sin except those worshiping others with our Creator.
004 – Soorah an-Nisaa. – (The Women) – [Madanee] , Verse 48
Verily, Allâh forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allâh in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin.
May 10th, 2008 at 9:36 am
you all should get a life
May 10th, 2008 at 11:51 am
There is a hard -working , dedicated group of folks in the heartland called the “Nebraskans for Peace’ that have been documenting the global-strike plans of STRATCOM for quite a while, and doing their very best to alert not only Americans but people all around the world to the threat to world peace that STRATCOM poses. Be sure to Check them out!
May 11th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Go to bible-truths.com to find out the real deal on what’s going to go down.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Does anyone know what is really going on in Georgia(country of?) with RUssia right now?
There is a lot going on in the world that we are not being fully apprised of.