Comments on: Hillary Clinton Compares Margaret Sanger to Thomas Jefferson

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 17:04:12 +0000

I’ll respond to this by e-mail.

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:58:27 +0000

Not so much, I was generally referring to how Paul saw followers of “The Way” (Christianity) related to Judaism. This would include Gentile believers in Christ.

By: Overworld

Overworld — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:26:36 +0000

You said that paul intended for the church to be graffed onto judaism… You completely misunderstood everything I said.

By: Overworld

Overworld — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:18:59 +0000

Obviously we are on completely different pages and the biblical reasons I give mean nothing to you as you would rather listen to the church fathers. As far as them putting the bible together, first they didn’t write any of it and I believe the catholic bible was based on different manuscripts than the King James, Textus Receptus vs Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus, this is another subject altogether.

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:14:14 +0000

I have already prayed the prayer that you have suggested in the past, and I have already worried over the murders of the Catholic Church and some of her doctrines. However, I have since come to realize that she is the Church of history. That being said, I bracket the historical validity of the Church’s worship practices into a separate category than the evil acts that were carried out from the top down, which is hardly a collected effort by the majority of Catholics. The murders you speak of were the evil acts of a free man with a lot of power, who happened to be Pope. If you’re going to look at fruits you have to look at the majority of PRACTICING Catholics, not a few in the past that have had enormous political power, which tends to corrupt ANY organization. Stick to investigating the history of the Church’s worship practices, and you will reach a very different conclusion. This is not side stepping, it is understanding the relation of ideas and which are foundational.

By: Overworld

Overworld — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:46:32 +0000

Mike, I believe you have side stepped many of my points also, and what you call political corruption and individual acts of evil I would call systematic murder, torture, oppression, persecution etc. The catholic church always imposed their will by intimidation, fear, force etc. and that was their mode of operation until they were met in kind and stopped by force. You said yourself that you will know a tree by the fruit it produces, and they produced some rotten fruit for many centuries, therefore it is not a red herring as you say but just another reason of many to reject the catholic church. You seem to hold the writings of the church fathers in the highest esteem, high and above everything else, but of course they are going to teach that everything they do is valid, every religion does that, what I am saying is to simply step outside your religion and look at some other sources, that’s what I did, because I wanted the truth, I asked the Messiah to show me the truth and I believe he did and boy how surprised I was to find out how deceived I had been, and he is still showing me things, whenever we think we have our theology all lined up and set out to defend it we are closed off from learning anything new. I will restate my main point, ask the Messiah to show you the truth and if you are SINCERE then he will, But if you think you have it all figured out than by all means build a fortress around it and defend it at all cost. I cannot change anyone’s mind, only the Messiah can do that and only if we are willing, so I do not wish to engage in a theological tit for tat because that would be a waste of time. overworld7@yahoo.com

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:30:45 +0000

I really have nothing left to say if you’re going to completely disregard my data, which undermines your positions on the Sacraments, and continue to raise side issues. Once the Sacrament “door” is opened all of your other criticisms of the Church (with the exception of the Eucharist, which my position is supported by the same people who put the very Bible you’re incorrectly interpreting together… How can you think your interpretation is better than the early Church Fathers?), even if hypothetically correct, are minor. When you have the time and are feeling more humble please have a look at the stuff I sent you and the texts I referenced. Barring that, at least wiki some of the early Fathers like Clement or Irenaeus.

Also, yes, Paul intended for the Church to be grafted onto Judaism, but James disputed his position, foreseeing it becoming its own entity. Who then was correct between these two gigantic authorites?

I would rather not e-mail this response, but I appreciate your offer.

By: Overworld

Overworld — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 15:11:59 +0000

Mike, I have done alot of research on the catholic church so I won’t bother with your link, and I will not hide my contempt for the catholic church theologically and historically, however I do not have contempt for catholics like yourself, just wanted to make that distinction. First, I think you misinterpret The teachings of Paul, Which is a common error, even Peter addressed this when he said that many things that Paul taught were hard to understand and unlearned men twisted to their own destruction and the destruction of their hearers. The messiah said it was easier for heaven and earth to pass than for one jot to disappear from the law, and also elsewhere he said not one jot or tittle would disappear until heaven and earth passed and all is fulfilled, obviously heaven and earth are still here. Now let’s address the eucharist, simply put this is the Passover, that was the whole point, he was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, he was the ultimate fulfillment of this feast of YHWH, he was saying do this in remembrance of me, the unleavened bread and wine REPRESENT his body and his blood, Paul says Messiah our Passover is sacrificed for us, therefore let us keep the feast 1Cor5:7,8. The catholic church has completely stripped the Hebraic meaning from this in the eucharist and then on top of that makes the claim that the priest actually turns the bread and wine into the actual flesh and blood of messiah in some wierd cannibalistic ritual. but as far as I’m concerned the sacraments are merely the tip of the iceberg, for me there are other problems that are much more glaring, like the blatant paganism of christmas and easter for example which is strictly forbidden throughout scripture, as a matter of fact it is a theme. Also the changing of Commandments like the Sabbath which is a sign between Israel and YHWH, Exodus31:12-17. Now, the new covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah rejoined and YHWH writing his law on their hearts Jer31:31-37. In Romans chapter eleven, Paul clearly teaches that the gentiles are graffed into Israel. So, the new covenant is with the members of the house of Israel that are in Messiah and the gentiles that are graffed into Israel through the Messiah. YHWHs’ covenant is with Israel and always has been, he has no covenant with any so called church. Also, translating Ekklesia as church is a poor rendering, it is better translated as Congregation or called out Assembly, in Acts7:38 the word church is used in reference to Israel in the wilderness. If you are going to respond to this please use my email address overworld7@yahoo.com for it is easier than using this site and my replies don’t always post and it’s a real hassle.

By: Mike

Mike — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:53:33 +0000

Joe,

Well, historically speaking, there was a hierarchy in the VERY early Church. It started with Jesus choosing Apostles, who were distinct from His disciples, and is made more evident when Peter was named as the foundation of Jesus’ Church. Not long after that the bishops and presbyters were practicing in a hierarchical fashion, where primacy was given to the Bishop of Rome. This is made fairly clear by St. Irenaeus in the Ante-Nicene Fathers. Here’s a wiki overview of him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus (Remember, his ideas are VERY early and pre-Constantine)

The problem with trusting a book like the Gnostic Gospels is that Biblical historians usually rejected their accuracy because they do not conform to Paul, whose letters are the earliest known written records. Paul and the Tradition of the very early Church are the guide posts for a scripture’s legitimacy, and the Gnostic Gospels fall short.

I’m also not a big fan of Vatican II, but I wouldn’t say “pure’ blasphemy. Marian apparitions still seem to affirm the legitimacy of the Church and her administration of the Sacraments (see Garabandal).

By: Joe

Joe — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:16:04 +0000

Although I have no right to forgive anyone, if it will ease your mind… you are forgiven, as I am sure Bill has forgiven you. Don’t let his words die in vain! Continue his fight! He used to talk about this woman named Vicky on his radio shows, who he had a falling out with. He loved her but felt betrayed by her. Dont become Vicky.